adam and eve’s exchange

image courtesy of ecosherpa.com

 

[This is the first post in a series on famous exchanges in the Bible.  There are more to come.]

A: Yes, I’m sure, woman.  That’s the one.  The tree we’re not allowed to eat from.  How many times do I have to tell you?

E: Okay, so you say this is the one.  But do you really think it’s that big of a deal?  I mean if The Almighty really didn’t want us eating strange apples from this one tree, don’t you think he would have told me about it, too?  Why are you the keeper of all commands?  The guy who goes to the grocery with a list that reads milk, eggs, and People magazine — and comes home with a box of ice cream and 8 Totino’s pizzas.  We don’t even have a freezer.  Or an oven.  And God chooses YOU to relay this monumental command to me and the rest of the world?!  Are you sure it’s this tree, the one right here in the middle?”

A: Yes, I’m sure, Eve.*  And The Great One picked me to tell because you weren’t around back then.  You were yet but a sparkle in his eye and a rib in my endoskeleton.  I’m telling you, we will die if we eat those weird looking apples.  And don’t get me started on the supermarket thing.  YOU were supposed to be MY helper — and here I am, being sent to the store for you… and sometimes for feminine products.  It’s not right.  It’s just not the way The Big Guy intended it.

E: Well, I don’t know… this talking serpent says we won’t die if we eat the kindaish-apples.  Instead we’ll just get vast amounts of knowledge.  We’ll know the difference between good and evil, Adam.  We’ll be like God.  Think of what we could do with all that knowledge — how good we could be at TicTacToe, how well our children could perform on their ACTs.  They could go to college, Adam.  At good universities.  On scholarship.  Lord knows we can’t pay for school with fig leaves and fruit.  And Cain is really interested in a career in geology; shouldn’t we encourage him to use his love of rocks for good and not evil?  And how are we even supposed to know the difference between the two without eating from that tree?  See, we need to, Adam.  We have to.

A: Uh… Eve, I’m pretty positive we’ll die if we eat the appley fruits from that tree.  The Man Upstairs said so.  And, although we don’t know exactly what this word death means, I think you’ll agree that it doesn’t sound like a walk in the garden.  And, besides, what do we need with more knowledge and greater intelligence?  Didn’t you hear me a second ago?  I used the word endoskeleton.

E: Yeah.  Impressive.  Now I’m going to have a bite of this apple.  Do you want me to save you some?

A: I really don’t think you should, Eve.  I mean it’s not like he gave us all that many rules.  We’re supposed to obey only two commands: this one about the peculiar apples and that other one to multiply and fill the earth — and it’s not like the second one’s a chore!  Let’s just stick to the fruit we know and are allowed and commanded to have.

E: But I want to be sophisticated.  Do you want any of this bizarre apple or not?  [A crunch, followed by chewing.]  Mmm… delicious.

A: I really don’t think this is a good idea, Eve.  But, then again, I’ve read studies about the myriad family problems associated with wives having higher levels of education than their husbands.  Hand it here; I’ll have a bite.

**********

It was on this day that the people of God first exchanged obedience for knowledge.  And it’s been one of the favorite activities of Christians everywhere since then.

See also:  the smart young m.div. candidate and obedience and brushing.

 

* Fellow blogger Matt Dabbs pointed out just yesterday in this post that Eve was not given her name until AFTER the fall.  I hope you’ll forgive me this inconsistency…


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62 Comments

Filed under exchanges, obedience

62 responses to “adam and eve’s exchange

  1. Powerful app Brett. Looking forward to these.

  2. Eagle

    Here’s the problem with original sin….I can’t understand or fatham why Adam’s actions have affected you Brett, myself or others. Why are we held responsible or why are we tainted for something that “happened” 5,000 years ago?

    It’s like Christ’s death…God who created the universe and everything in it could wipe away sin with his full power. Yet he chose not to. Why is that? I would think it would be in God’s interest; especially since he’s omniscient and would have known in advance that he would have had to had his own son killed. Why wouldn’t God have just forgiven the world by himself without having Jesus killed?

    Not to be harsh…but that almost makes God to be sadomashicst, which in itself is disturbing. But I can’t understand why you, myself, and other readers of this blog are stained or effected by Adam’s actions.

    • We pay, because as HUMANS~ we ALL would have made the very same choice as ADAM. All of us. He rescues us by providing a Way (JC) to overcome the wages of sin.
      Think about all the sins we commit in a day- especially in our hearts.
      Christ then paid for ALL by being perfection. Which for us to do would have been an impossibility.

    • i personally don’t believe we’re held responsible for what adam did, eagle — though much of christianity would disagree with me. i believe i’m held responsible for what i’ve done, that i’ll be judged for my own deeds. and that, even then, Christ has offered to stand in my place.

      i may come back to your questions a little later, but i want to give some others the opportunity to discuss as well…

      • Eagle

        Brett-

        Interesting…in some of the churches I was involved in the past, some of the pastors I have known would have gone for your purse strings if you were being sponsored by that church. So you don’t believe in a literal interpretation of scripture (I can agree with you there) nor the concept of original sin. Likewise that is interesting.

        So (and I hope you are following my thinking…) if you don’t believe in original sin does that also mean you don’t believe in generational sin? I’ve always viewed generational sin as being contradictory to free choice and was always confused by how the two were preached, and taught – yet in conflict with each other.

        I would think that Adam’s “sin” would the best case of generational sin in the Bible, especially after seeing how it was carried down and tainted mankind.

        Perhaps I was hanging around the wrong “fundegelical” crowd.

        • >>“fundegelical”

          Classic! Never heard that one before!

        • eagle, i didn’t say i don’t believe in a literal interpretation of scripture (i don’t think i said that). but what i mean to say is that i don’t believe one MUST believe in a literal interpretation of scripture. i probably take more of scripture literally than many others. but no one — even those who say they do — takes all of scripture literally. it’s a ridiculous idea.

          i figure unless i’ve been given good reason not to take something literally, i probably will. that may be simplistic of me, but (i think) that’s basically how i operate.

          i can believe in original sin if it’s defined the “right” way. as for generational sin, i’m not sure how i feel about that idea. i know my inclination is to want every person to stand alone. but that’s not scriptural, and seems to be very tainted by my american concept of individualism and personal rights and freedoms.

          • Eagle

            Brett-

            Here’s the problem…since you can’t take all of scripture literally then how do you determine what to take literally and what not to take literally? For me that shows how subjective Christianity can be. And dare I say (not to anger you…but this is coming from someone who had a stint in Mormonism in his background) that you then run the risk of abusing scripture and taking it out of context? When you are using scripture to justify your theological positions and do so in a “pick and choose” style context…is that any different than what the Mormons do? (scratches head…)

          • eagle, i agree with you that scripture can be, and is often, abused. but the same is true with any writing — well, language altogether:

            – does the right to bear arms mean i can have a gun with which to hunt or does it have more to do with a collective militia for our protection?

            – does “all men are created equal” apply to women and blacks?

            language (and especially intent) is subjective. and so, any attempt to live with language necessarily must be subjective to some extent — christian or not.

            so there is always a risk of abusing scripture. the answer, then, is to attempt to use it correctly and help one another do the same. the answer is not to take it all literally. and correct use of scripture necessitates that we don’t read it to justify our own theological positions and leanings.

            so when i read scripture i TRY (never entirely possible) to look at it objectively — and i myself read it literally unless there is good reason not to. however, i often find that either reading will result in the same meaning for me today. for instance, say adam and eve eat an apple or a fig or some other fruit. or say they’re mankind seeking to please themselves rather than God. what i learn is incredibly similar, if not exactly the same. there was a break from obedience to God, and the fall and involved curses were the result.

  3. You have such a talent for this.

    And on top of that, it stirs up questions, huh 🙂

    • thanks, charlie. and i appreciate the link as well. i wanted to post on your blog today, but my thoughts on that subject are super-jumbled right now. i don’t think i could write a coherent sentence, much less a full comment. but i’m working on putting it all together in my mind….

  4. Every time I consider Adam and Eve and the whole apple issue, I want to smack Adam.

    Sure, sure, Eve did indeed eat the apple first and all that. This is fact. But, man, if Adam would have been a husband and a leader, he would have taken control of the situation and told Eve to not disobey God. But what did he do? He was standing right there the whole time and said nothing.

    Yeesh.

    To this day, our Father tells us as husbands to lead our homes and not be weak like Adam.

    In the BIg Picture, Adam needed to abdicate his authority and allow Eve to do what she did so that the plan of Salvation could be put into play. In the BIG PICTURE. I am thankful and grateful, then, in a way that Adam didn’t man-up. I reckon it is me endeavoring to not cry over spilt milk, since God is holding the roll of paper towels to clean it up anyways.

    Adam. Weak. Sin arrives. God then had to kill animals to cover their sin, (their nakedness). And so it goes all the way to Jesus and His sacrifice to cover our sins as The Lamb.

    • You must be a perfectly controlling husband.

      • Tisha you took the words …I mean that apple right out of my mouth!

        Doctrinally though, God never says ”apple”….fruit is used, and it is a very broad term imo. I don’t see where God says Adam was weak either.
        Eve was tricked, Adam took it willingly without hesitation.
        Sounds like a lot of tempting things we all deal with in this life.
        It looks good, tastes good, and feeds our ego…..hmmm…..

      • @Tisha,
        You said:
        “You must be a perfectly controlling husband.”

        Indeed I am. However, I would encourage you to ask my bride and covenant wife if she is unhappy about that. I’m kinda biased, myself.

  5. I really enjoyed reading this. I’ve always thought the Adam and Eve story sounded so hokey. I’m not saying I don’t believe it, but I remember when I started studying the Greek gods and goddesses in my Latin classes, I thought that some of the stories in the Bible don’t sound that different from the outlandish stories of the gods that so many believed. This made it hard for me, for a time, to explain my beliefs to others…

    I also think the story has been used as a…what would we call it…crutch? Excuse? for men and their treatment of women. Even today (or more in my college years, I’m not sure if it is so big now) with all the “women must protect their brothers in Christ from temptation by doing/not doing certain things and wearing/not wearing certain things.” And I bought into it for a good while until I learned a bit more about men. Then I decided it was their problem not mine (and I’m not saying that is right, just that it is). Actually, that theme (woman as temptress) is all throughout the Bible… so maybe we are the great thorn in the flesh of man (or from the flesh, however you think of it).

    I don’t mean to sound disrespectful of the story. I think it is in the Bible for a reason even if I can’t totally grasp what the reason is or if it really happened that way. I feel sort of like I should believe it happened that way since it is in the Bible…but I’ve always wondered just a little bit about it. I wonder if that is wrong or shows weak faith…

    Anyway, my apologies for the ramblings on your blog. Despite what I wonder about, I still enjoyed your retelling.

    • Jane,

      If I may, I would like to say that you are not that off-base. Because of the Adam/Eve story, as you put it, there is a bit of hairy-eyeballing and, shall I say?, distrust regarding women in the faith. Maybe suspicion would be a better term.

      It is true that Eve screwed up. Fact. It is also true that Adam dropped the ball. Fact. In the New Testament, 1 Timothy 2:13-14, Paul makes the statement that Eve was the one who was deceived and became a sinner. Many folks today have decided to take that and run with it to the conclusion that because of this, women are more prone to being bad and getting deceived even within The Bride than men are. I, myself, error on the side of caution in that I look to the standards Paul puts on marriage as my “measuring device” regarding women.

      My wife submits to me. I lead my wife. But there is soooo much more to it than that, and in daily and practical application it goes so far beyond the knee-jerk attitudes these statements imply. We have equal worth, to be sure. But we have vastly different roles. And these are not roles forced upon us by a misogynistic God. My bride doesn’t want to be the husband, for she knows what that means. I, in turn, do not wish to be the wife, because I’m simply not built for that. The God we worship is the Father to both of us, and she loves Him more than she loves me. And rightly so. She is called to respect me, and I am called to love her as Christ loves His Church. Simple enough, right? (Sorry, I was rambling here…)

      Knowing we are equal in the eyes of our Father, men and women, I do measure a woman based on her relationship to her husband, her children, and our God. Is she faithful to her husband? Does she tear him down when he is not around? Is she impatient with her children? Does she flinch at the word ‘submit’ and immediately answer that women can be leaders as well? I measure a man the same way, mind you.

      Do I see a bit of sexual prejudice and suspicion today, within some churches? Sure. Sure I do. Will it ever change? Hmm. Not sure. Our Father is all about women. Consider, who was the first person who went to His tomb? Consider, He gave a prostitute an identity that had nothing to do with looking at her as a prostitute. He appeared to Mary Magdalene first after His resurrection. Jesus was not against women. At all. He did more for “equal rights” than the most zealous of feminists could ever hope to do.

      I would say to look at the story of Adam and Eve as Adam dropping the ball. Eve messed up, to be sure. But Adam needed to be a husband and not an accomplice. He needed to put his foot down and tell Eve to submit. Not in a jerky way. No. He should have told her to submit because this would have pleased God. And isn’t pleasing God to be paramount, regardless of whose feelings get hurt in the process?

      Sorry. This rambled on and on and I fear I did not make any salient points. I just see a bit of caution and suspicion whenever a woman shows a desire to serve in the churches. Like she is plotting an overthrow or something. Nonsense. Women are to be treated as weaker vessels, but that does not mean they are weak in and of themselves. It’s simply how our Father wants us, as men, to guard them and protect them.

      Thanks for reading this pointless tirade.

      • @ project, i have to wonder if eve was indeed supposed to have submitted to adam before the fall? was he in a position of authority at that point?

        it seems to me that a wife’s submission to her husband came as part of the curse after the fall. and not as adam and eve’s original and created purpose.

        but i’m certainly open to discussion on the topic…

        • Submission is a curse? I thought pain in childbirth was the curse… Submission doesn’t seem so bad, really if you marry someone submission-worthy. 😉 (kidding….sort of).

          • the part of the curse directed to eve (who was not yet named eve) goes like this:

            “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
            with painful labor you will give birth to children.
            Your desire will be for your husband,
            and he will rule over you.”

            it’s that “rule over you” bit that makes me think submission was part of the fall, and wouldn’t have been needed or expected otherwise. of course i don’t know; and i guess we never can know with certainty…?

          • Jerry Starling

            James,
            “And he will rule over you.” Is that a simple statement of what happened or is it a command? Is it a consequence of the competition between even husbands and wives, or is it a statement of what God’s plan for the husband-wife relationship to be?
            Jerry

          • jerry, i’m not sure if it’s a command or just the way things are going to be? my only real assumption is that it wasn’t going to be that way before sin entered into the world.

            what do you think?

        • James,

          That is a good point. I view what Adam and Eve had as being the original “husband and wife team” of our history, but I hadn’t considered it as you do.

          Interesting.

          @Jane,
          I understand your not placing salvific value on the Adam and Eve story. I don’t either. I believe it, as I believe that Absalom died when his hair got caught in the branches of a tree, but it has nothing to do with who we are in Jesus. And thank you for not considering my lengthy comment as pointless. I’m feeling quite happy about that.

      • I don’t think it was pointless at all. I agree with much, if not all, of what you have said. Most of what God calls me to be as a wife to my wonderful husband seems easy to me – maybe because I married a great man or as a Christian woman I see the good in it, I’m not sure. And I should clarify that I don’t measure up to those standards by any means, but I certainly don’t mind trying to. The word “submit” does not make me flinch and sometimes I am surprised that I actually want to be that kind of wife to my husband. But I think that might be because my husband and I both understand (as much as we can) the context.

        I suppose I was merely throwing out an entire life’s worth (31 short years) of views and opinions on the subject from believers of all sorts, myself included, on the Adam and Eve story and what it may or may not have caused in the minds and actions of all who have read it. My own personal background is with the Church of Christ and while not representative of all churches of this denomination, I feel that many have some…misconstrued views about scripture concerning women. I think it makes it easier on the conscience of men who have these views. “I’m not a bad man because I’ve sinned – it is that woman who causes me to do it.” And this mindset could have nothing to do with Adam and Eve but our own human nature which is to blame something or someone else for our own failings. Men are certainly not the only gender who use blame to feel better. We all do it.

        And taking that a step further, it could also have to do with finding a gender, or race, or set of humans who are less than we are because of their differences from us. There are several different motivations for this one, not just simply the desire to be better or feel better about ourselves. But it is seen all throughout history with races and genders and such, and the story of Adam and Eve has been used as one of the many examples of how women are nothing but trouble.

    • janie, i don’t think you sound disrespectful of the story. but even if you did, it’s a story. and i think it’d be difficult for someone to prove it’s a story that must be taken literally and exactly as it’s written.

      however, i am almost positive that i do indeed believe the story to be literal, though i don’t require the same of my brothers and sisters. but i may very well try to convince them otherwise. it’s just that if i’m right, i want my friends to be right as well.

      but you’re definitely correct that the story’s been used against women in ways it shouldn’t have.

      did you take latin at auburn?

      • I’m not saying I don’t believe it…I just…wonder. I don’t know that believing it is essential to my salvation, however, so I try not to worry about it overly much. And I certainly won’t go around saying it isn’t true. Saying all of that sounds weird, but I don’t mean to be flippant or disrespectful about any of it.

        I took Latin in high school and then took Latin and Greek at Auburn…which was a mistake I think. I should have taken something normal like Spanish. Greek about did me in.

        • i also wonder. i often (as often as i read the story) find myself trying to figure out, if the story of adam and eve were a metaphor or even an allegory, what it all would represent…

          i heard greek at auburn was tough, because it wasn’t koine / biblical greek and was, therefore, harder to be interested. i remember when jessica (a friend of mine) took it and was upset because i was at lipscomb learning bible greek and 1/2 the words she was learning had to do with war and death and destruction.

          • Yeah, it was older than Bible Greek and no longer used…so it was kind of like “what is the point?” I was trying to be scholarly so I stuck with it but it was intense.

          • janie, you know latin is the reason so many people view the forbidden today as an apple? because the word for evil and apple in latin are so similar — malum or mali or something like that.

          • I had no idea. I’ve forgotten most of it except that the word for good-bye to many people sounds like “wallet” and I use it incorrectly that way most of the time. I also know the words for Mom and Dad and where some English words came from. I have forgotten all the Greek.

          • i remember just enough greek to confuse myself when i get out the greek bible and try to read it.

  6. Brett, you really opened up a can of worms with this post, eh? Maybe they came with the apple.
    Reading it written this way is a great avenue to get people think about the scenario from a different angle.

    It’s always weird to see people (like Adam…or Eve) in the Bible criticized, as if each one of us would have done so much infinitely better ourselves. I think of that all the time when people make fun of the disciples for being dimwits. Because we are ALL utterly BRILLIANT!!
    Easy to say from our pedestals of hindsight.

    I always wonder what the “apple” so to speak, really was. It doesn’t seem like it would be a literal piece of fruit. But, who knows.
    Good discussion.

  7. I can’t tell if you’re serious!
    Yes, I believe the Bible is true! However, not always literal. Some parts are figurative. Do you believe Jeremiah really ate the scroll?

  8. Robert Hagedorn

    Yes, the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil really was closer to wink wink than it was to an apple. To discover how close it was to wink wink please do a search: The First Scandal Adam and Eve.

  9. Jerry Starling

    Did anyone of you ever think the Eve’s temptation was that she (not God) would now be able to determine good and evil for herself? Adam (and Eve) knew that it was wrong to eat the forbidden fruit (whatever it was). What she wanted was to be like God “knowing good and evil.” I understand (or misunderstand?) that to mean that she wanted to be able to decide for herself what “right” and “wrong” meant – without having anyone (even God) telling her what she ought to do.

    That makes this story very current and up to date.

    Jerry
    committedtotruth.wordpress.com

  10. Jason Miller

    Wow.

    For some reason, I’d never thought of the ability to determine good and evil as placing Eve at the center of her moral universe. I’d always taken her “becoming like God” as she could simply see the difference between good and evil not actually, like God, define it.

    That, Jerry, is fascinating.

    Second, I was wondering when you were gonna get at Swahili understanding of Forbidden Fruit. Also Islamic understanding, and Swahili via Arabic/Islamic coastal influence here in East Africa.

    Third, if you view the first…we’ll say several…chapters of Genesis as literal, what do you personally do with the following (which are in no particular order nor, in my opinion, exhaustive):
    1:6-7-God separated the “waters” to that above the sky and that below. Is this literal or is this something else?
    6:1-4-First we have the Sons of God carrying off the daughters of men ’cause their beautiful, and then we have the Nephilim, their offspring. Who said something about Greek mythology? The offspring of gods and humans? Achilles, anybody? Son of Pereus and Thytis, minor god/sea nymph? Is this literal?

    Anyway, I don’t know how to take Robert Hagedorn’s link. While interesting, it is the internet.

  11. jason, have i misunderstood the very vague “description” of the forbidden fruit that i received from my tanzanian friend?

    and i don’t know the islamic view. i googled it really quick, but got banana and/or wheat. fill us in?

  12. Jason Miller

    No, you got it generally. Maybe I asked more questions, though, b/c you know I don’t mind asking those really uncomfortable questions and writing it off to my outsider status.

    To everyone I’ve talked to, it’s vaguely sex and specifically oral sex, to the point that most people I talk to (Christian, Muslim, or not) still feel that sex is sinful. Yes, I know that group of “nots” and the word sinful don’t necessarily agree, but think selfish (not of the group), not necessarily moral sin.

    This, IN MY OPINION, and through my research, has been directly linked to the 1000 years of Arabic contact coastal Swahili speakers have had to Islam. I also should have been more specific in my terminology. The EAST AFRICAN COASTAL ISLAMIC view of the forbidden fruit is sex, and by extension for them sex in all forms is sinful. Now, to be fair, I don’t know specifically what more peninsular-based Islamic theology has to say about this.

    In contrast, sex used to be seen by Sukuma (the people around Mwanza and Geita) as unifying, even magically communal. It featured highly in magical initiation rituals that involved both sexes, and if you remember Stroeken speaking at that “salon” we attended, sexual promiscuity is not traditionally looked down on by members of the same sex…its just when your husband or wife finds out you’ve been sleeping around…..

    All that to say, sex is not traditionally viewed as sinful among the people of this area (the Sukuma), and yet for generations (if you believe my sources) it has been viewed in such a way. I’m sure Victorian-era and just post-Victorian-era Christianity had some influence there as well, but this is more than an opinion here (meaning, the source for these ideas seems to come from the deeper past than the 1880’s forward); these days, its part of their worldview, to the same extent that some Westerners would be a little lost upon realizing that you are questioning the validity of forbidden fruit as apple. They’d be lost or confused b/c it is beyond the things we consciously decide on a daily basis.

    • okay, that makes a lot of sense. i understand from my private conversations with the bible study facilitator that oral sex was the forbidden fruit. [robert’s view above seems to focus more on anal sex, but includes any “abuse” of sex not having to do with procreation.] anyway, so that’s what i gathered from talking with my friend — that the forbidden fruit was oral sex.

      BUT i just asked christie what she understood from the bible study group as a whole, and she said it seemed more like they were talking about sex period. which seems to make perfect sense with what you’re saying. at that point, i had already spoken with edward and was expecting one topic to be awkwardly talked around. so when i heard what christie heard, i think i made it into oral sex. maybe. because she didn’t hear what i did.

  13. Jason Miller

    Yeah, you’re totally right, apple and evil are both malum in Latin.

    Just like Jerome translated in the Latin Vulgate Exodus 34:29 wrong and instead of Moses’ face “shining” it became “horned.” And now we have Michelangelo’s sculpture of Moses with the horns. Horns, even, were for a time symbols of wisdom.

  14. So there might not of even been a tree? And there might not of even been a talking snake?

    I have NEVER, in my whole freaking 42.5 years, heard of the idea of sex actually being the forbidden fruit.

    I simply can’t see how Eve could of partaken of it before Adam did, unless, of course, we want to get into that “having sex alone” thing, in which case it would seem that Adam would have endured more temptation in that regard than Eve did, since men have a bigger problem with it now than women usually do.

    Somewhere along the way, I told Brett that he was raising a lot of questions.

    This also bumps us into the question of a literal Adam and Eve, which provokes the thought of literal lifespans, which pushes us toward the question of old earth and the possibility of evolutionary creationism, which elevates eyebrows everywhere in evangelical fundamentalism, because of the fact that interpreting Genesis as allegorical or illustrative rather than historical means that we have to look at Daniel and Revelation in a whole new light, and even be prepared to deal with questions regarding “born of a virgin”.

    Like someone said, how can we TRULY know what is factual and what is something else?

    Gosh, Brett, can’t you just blog about water towers and bicycles and stop making my brain break? 🙂

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